Transcript:

Welcome to the aftercare experience, post pregnancy conversations with Anita. I’m Anita, mom, licensed mental health counselor, sleep consultant, full spectrum doula, and so much more.

Anita: Hi, everybody. Welcome back to another episode of the aftercare experience, postpartum conversations with Anita today. I have a, such a great guest and I’m so excited to be talking to Sabrina. Sabrina is a doula and she helps in her doula practice. Having a community with such a specific community that I feel like we don’t talk about a lot and it’s.

Anita: the community of those who have to terminate their pregnancy due to medical reasons. And I’m so excited to get into this conversation about what TFMR is, how she helps her community in their aftercare experience, and, all the things she does. So thank you, 

Sabrina: Sabrina, for being here today. Thank you. Thank you so much, Anita.

Sabrina: And thanks for opening up this conversation, especially in the like broad mothering the context of, you know, broad mothering because it is a part. Yeah. So 

Anita: tell everybody a little bit about you and what got you to this place where you are. Well, you’re really known as the TFMR doula. So what 

Sabrina: got you to here?

Sabrina: What’s your story? Yeah. Thank you. So I decided to create this community for people who have had to Terminate a wanted pregnancy for health reasons either for their own reason something with their body or their pregnancy just does not permit the pregnancy to continue or for the baby’s health.

Sabrina: So different syndromes and conditions present in utero and many people have to make this heartbreaking decision to end their wanted And, or surprise to wanted pregnancies and I, I created this space because I went through it too. So this happened to me in 2018. I had a older daughter already.

Sabrina: She was four at the time. And my, my partner now my husband we decided that we wanted another baby, but we, we were also going to get married. So we were kind of waiting for the wedding we did conceive our second baby right in, like, the honeymoon period. So it was really magical. I felt like, oh, okay, this time I did it all right.

Sabrina: Whatever that is. You know, this time , we got married. We’re, we’ve been together a little bit longer. We’re more committed. I took a whole fertility course beforehand. I was doing all the supplements. All the things, seed cycling, like so many things for my fertility, and our baby was still sick.

Sabrina: So it’s not really about doing it right, or doing it wrong, or not doing enough, or, I Finally came to realize not right away. This was something that took a while to work through that these things just happen, you know, there’s sickness and illness and conditions. In humanity, and it happened with my baby.

Sabrina: So we found out in the scan between 11 and 14 weeks where they look for different markers for genetic conditions. One of the main things that they look at is the size of the fluid in the back of the neck. So I think they called it nuchal translucency or NT. And our babies was very high. Our.

Sabrina: Doctor went silent during the scan and was taking more and more pictures. And you know, I just felt like something’s wrong. And then he said I’m sorry, your baby does not look the same as when you came in a few weeks ago. Your baby is very sick. The fluid was so immense. that there’s even a name for it.

Sabrina: He was calling it a cystic hygroma. Sometimes it’s just on one side, sometimes it’s on both. Our baby had it on both sides and the swelling was not only on the back of the neck and causing a really high nuchal translucency reading but it was also all over her body. so Her torso, her head, and he imagined that.

Sabrina: You know, down the line, we would also find out that the swelling, which he called high drops, that’s the, the name for this, not really condition. Or, oh, so our doctor told us that. You know, probably a few weeks more into the pregnancy, they would be able to visualize swelling in the organs as well around the heart.

Sabrina: The condition itself may have been caused by an underlying heart condition. Or he said it could have been Turner’s syndrome or any of the other trisomies. Something genetic, we don’t really know and I still don’t know, and that’s a part of my story that is very tragic because it’s related to the, the political environment around terminations and abortions.

Sabrina: He, he told us on that day when he gave us this diagnosis and we could see showing us different pictures of different fetuses at, at, at this stage of development and then showing us the picture, like what he was seeing on the screen and we could see it ourselves with our own eyes. bUt he told us that day.

Sabrina: You need to decide now, because there’s really no time. And it can’t be here in this state. You should contact your gynecologist. He, he knew who my gynecologist was. But I think he didn’t even want to give me a reference because it’s not. lEgal in the state that I live in, in Mexico here in Morelos, Mexico so he didn’t even want to, you know, tell me the name of a clinic and but he, was telling us, you know, how long we had that up to 12 weeks, which is, they count it as 14 weeks since we count the two weeks, but I was already 12 weeks and six days.

Sabrina: So I really only had a week to figure out and I wasn’t offered an IPT testing, even though that’s just screening. So to see if any of those conditions would have been picked up. And IPT testing is still available. Not very common. In Mexico, in my pregnancy, after this loss, I had to seek it out from like a special laboratory and have my blood sent to, I don’t know, probably Los Angeles or something to to get A-N-I-P-T test done.

Sabrina: So we weren’t offered that, and I asked about an amniocentesis and he said, well, you would have to wait until week 18 and then your options. There really are no options. It would, it would more be to know what condition she had so that we could be prepared at birth or you know, deliver and the high risk, the high risk, or with the team knowing that they would have to take the baby for this or that or NIC.

Sabrina: You care. But I didn’t know, you know, right then what I wanted to do, but I did already have a feeling I remember thinking I’m going to have to have an abortion, you know, for my wanted baby for my baby that I planned for for my baby that I waited to conceive after I got married. So it was all very confusing.

Sabrina: And he was using the word termination. Which it is, legally, it’s an abortion, but the experience is pregnancy loss, so psychologically, emotionally to my heart, to my mind, to my motherhood, it was pregnancy loss, it was grieving who died and I’ve heard people describe it as it’s, similar to having to take a loved one off of life support.

Sabrina: bUt in this case, I was the life support for my baby. Because her condition the swelling, it leads to swelling in the lungs and then the lungs don’t fully develop. So she would never be able to breathe. She would, she would have suffocated upon birth. However long that would have been. I mean, with, with how advanced things already were.

Sabrina: Our doctor was imagining that you know, it would have been a stillbirth at any point or miscarriage, you know, depending on the weeks. But that probably our baby wouldn’t survive, you know, very much longer in pregnancy. And then I was up against these laws. So we went home and I think he did give us the printout and you know, all of the, the numbers and, you know, where he was seeing the swelling and all that on the pictures and one little piece of paper that said Turner syndrome.

Sabrina: And so my husband and I went home. And we started Googling as much as we could. I read as many research papers, looked at statistics. It just got more and more dire the more that I looked at it. And I found out some things that he hadn’t told me. Well, he, had said you know, I support whatever you want to do.

Sabrina: anD if you want to continue the pregnancy, this is now a high risk pregnancy, and I want to see you weekly. So, that was a big shift, just to, just to hold that, just to know, okay, this is now a high risk pregnancy. Does that even mean? And I found out that the condition that my baby had, this swelling, the high drops, Can turn into what they call mirror syndrome and it can cause the same kind of swelling in organs for the pregnant person.

Sabrina: So I was at risk of developing high drops as well. I mean, it wouldn’t be high drops because it’s different for the gestating person, but just, just knowing that I was, you know, putting my organs at risk. And then I found out even more, ​about babies with this condition and how they. deliver them. It’s a very high risk procedure.

Sabrina: It’s not even a cesarean section. It’s called an exit strategy where they just like cut through all of the layers all at once vertically. So it’s not even like the nice little like bikini area incision. No, this is like emergency. We have to get the baby out along. All at once, so very traumatic.

Sabrina: I, you know, I just, I read about that procedure and I was like, wow, that sounds really traumatic to the body, to the uterus, to the baby itself. And I thought. You know, I don’t, I don’t want that. I don’t want that for my body. And I don’t want that for her. If she’s already suffering, if she already has all these conditions, if she already has all of these insurmountable obstacles to even being born and then what surviving a few minutes.

Sabrina: So eventually we did decide that we wanted to go ahead with the termination. And it still really messes with my head that. That, that it’s a termination, that it’s not just called a DNC because that is what it is. It’s a DNC or a DNE later on in pregnancy. Or, or some people just like you know, if a baby is stillborn or if their heart has stopped, if they’ve died in the womb some people give, some people are induced and all of those are different ways that, that babies are born through.

Sabrina: Terminations or when there’s a pregnancy loss or when the baby has died, it’s really all the same. They’re all the same types of procedures. So when everyone kept saying like, okay, scheduling your abortion, okay, your procedure, your da da da. I was thinking what, like, what is going on? Because this is a, this is a wanted baby and I’m being put in the abortion box, which is.

Sabrina: You know, I mean, many people have to have abortions for so many different reasons. But it just felt really inappropriate, both for the people who are having what we could call lifestyle abortions. Because they were there and yes, there were some tears, but there were also some people who were just like, okay, I don’t want this pregnancy.

Sabrina: And there was even this one woman at the clinic who kind of, when the nurses said, okay, you can go now. And she was just like, thank you and smiling and hugging the nurses and like skipping out of there. And that was not, that was not my psychological experience. You know, it would be like putting someone.

Sabrina: Who has to go through a DNC because their baby has died right next to someone who’s having a lifestyle abortion like that. And I also felt like all of my tears and like our big outward expression of like grief and big emotions between my husband and I, he, he was allowed to be with me at certain points at the clinic.

Sabrina: But I felt like our big expressions of emotions could have traumatized other people. Like it was inappropriate for them as well to see, to see us going through a pregnancy loss psychological experience. And we asked for a private room and they couldn’t, I don’t think they had the space. It wasn’t that they didn’t want to they weren’t able to give us that.

Sabrina: So there were. That, that happened that were just very confusing to my psyche. I would say very, very confusing because like I said, this was a wanted baby and and through all this process, I, I haven’t even used the word TFMR yet because I still didn’t know that that’s what it was, that that was how I could define the situation for myself.

Sabrina: I learned about that word. Maybe, like, three or four days after losing my baby, I just kept googling different things, like, Abortion for fetal anomalies, or abortion for this or that, or termination, termination for health reasons. Like, I didn’t even know what I was looking for, or grief support after abortion.

Sabrina: That, I do not recommend. I do not recommend that, that search. It, it leads you down the, like, Brimstone and hell area, and that is not what I needed. I needed pregnancy loss support groups. That’s really what I was looking for. I was looking for pregnancy loss groups, but I would, you know, bind boards and groups.

Sabrina: And then they would say miscarriage and stillbirth and nothing else. And so, I would feel like, well, it wasn’t a miscarriage, I don’t think, it wasn’t a stillbirth, I don’t think, so I don’t fit there and I didn’t know where I fit, but I eventually found some boards on BabyCenter, and they have a TFMR board and I also found a Facebook group ending a wanted pregnancy.

Sabrina: sO that group used the term TFMR termination for medical reasons. And they would say, I’m so sorry for your loss. I’m so sorry your baby died. I’m so sorry your baby was so sick. I’m sorry you were put in this position. Error. You know, members share their grief stories, how they honor and remember their babies.

Sabrina: I saw people in that group who were part of, like, broad pregnancy loss spaces. They would say, oh, we did this 5K, 5K pregnancy walk, pregnancy loss awareness walk the other weekend and my baby’s name was on the list. And I thought, oh, you can, you can do that. You can do that if it was. And abortion. And so seeing how people were grieving out loud and remembering their babies, it gave me permission to do the same, but it was a was a long journey and even though I found, you know, I, I found these groups, pretty quickly, you know, just like a few days afterwards.

Sabrina: It still wasn’t soon enough. I should have been told. You know, that TFMR is a term, and this is a pregnancy loss, and here are resources. I should have been told that, you know, right when we were even making the decision. Right when we were getting the, the, the diagnosis.

Anita: In your story, and I just think to, like, present day, and how these same challenges, Are still there. And especially now, I want to say with what occurred last summer in the United States, where rules were overturned, which now made it even harder. Or moms who were going through their child having some type of anomaly or it was affecting their own health and trying to now navigate in such a short period of time where they can go in order to get things done.

Anita: And I know I was supporting a mom right after everything was overturned. And her telling me her story of, you know, between my religious beliefs, and that’s now weighing heavy on me, and then I’m trying to go and find where I can do this. But I have this time crunch and who’s going to be able to watch my kids and that I need to fly to a whole different state.

Anita: And then I’m getting to that state and I want to have this done in a private place in the hospital. But the hospitals are giving me such a hard time about it. So then now. I have to go to a clinic, and there’s all these people outside with these signs, calling me all types of different names and different things like that.

Anita: And they’re not understanding that this is not just for me, it’s for my baby. Like, I want this child so badly, but we’re just in a space where, unfortunately, our child is not going to be able to make it Earthside. And to hear that you had some similar things. In 2018, and now we’re in 2023, and parents are still going through the same thing.

Anita: It almost makes us think, when is something going to change? How are we going to be able to educate more people about the term abortion does not necessarily have to 

Anita: be a negative thing. 

Sabrina: And it’s absolutely awful that people who are getting any type of abortion have to put up with that and go to another state when they’re already in a crisis.

Sabrina: When they’re already just trying to do the best they can in different situations or looking decades ahead through their life or even thinking about the life that they could give to that baby. I don’t think that any abortion is made without consideration and care and love. 

Anita: Now, in your grieving and finding these groups, and I mean, I feel like grief is a journey.

Anita: There’s this, it’s like no timeline. First of all, we can work through it. And as we go through different stages, we may have new triggers and new things for us to work through in our grief journey. But in your grief journey, what got you to a place where you decided to create the community that you do have 

Sabrina: today?

Sabrina: That’s a really great question. I decided to create the community that. I have today, you know, going through the experience that, that I went through and then finding so much solace and hope in these few little groups that existed, but so much, they, they saved my life. I, I would have been just floating out into the ocean without those groups and their guidance and other people who had been through this too and said, I’m sorry for your loss.

Sabrina: Just hearing that validation after what I went through was just so invalidating on so many levels. But I found that community and I, I really felt the, the strength in sharing those stories in sharing hope and sharing ideas for so in, in, in sharing those stories and sharing the hope and sharing the solace, sharing different ideas, different ways to cope with grief.

Sabrina: Because there are some very specific layers of TFMR pregnancy loss that other types of pregnancy loss, people don’t have to grapple with as much, of course, there are, you know, different types And, and different ways to either induce or have a, have a DME or, you know, all, all those different kinds of decisions at the, at the end of a pregnancy people do have to grapple with that, but there’s this level.

Sabrina: I would say that because of the specific layer of needing to make the decision, holding the weight of the decision on our shoulders as TFMR parents. That changes the grief landscape and it deserves to be tended to of all of the things that come up in the complicated feelings and all of the tough thoughts, or even the good thoughts that come up around the fact that we had to choose this deserves a lot of space and time, and I find that that’s one of the.

Sabrina: Biggest things that people need to process after going through this type of loss. At least that was true for me. And I, and I find the same for my clients and my community. So I have a face. I have a, I have a Facebook group now to There are over 600 people in there currently, and we talk about these things all the time.

Sabrina: We, we support each other through, you know, the next triggering abortion law news cycle. We support each other through our friends and family getting pregnant and then saying things like, Oh, I would never do any of that testing because it’s a baby anyway. It’s really hard not to take those comments personally and sort of roll it over onto ourselves and say, Oh, so they’re saying I didn’t love my baby.

Sabrina: So there’s a lot of social, political, religious things that people say. And we have to deal with that, and I think it’s most helpful to, to deal, to learn how to cope with the current situation with others who have been through it, because there are people in the community who are years ahead of you when you come in and they’ve had experience.

Sabrina: It’s like, Oh yeah, it’s November again. Yeah, they’re going to be talking about abortion. Here’s what you can do. Or here’s what I did last year to help get myself through the election season. Or here’s what I did four years ago when it was a presidential election season. That makes sense. 

Anita: And I feel like even having this conversation with you, even though I do work with.

Anita: Moms who have experienced loss, some who have experienced through TFMR, I don’t think I thought about those things either, like elections, how those can be triggering or even the things that you said of family members. And in those instances, it’s sometimes that lived experience that would make you think about it.

Anita: And although we never want wish loss or anything on people, but. Even like I’ve experienced the loss via miscarriage and understanding grief and my own grief journey and as I’m moving through things in life, but to also realize that I can understand from the grief to some extent. But like you said, the fact that I wasn’t in control of what occurred and that as you’re pregnant, you are the life support for your baby.

Anita: And then making that decision to be like, okay, I do have to pull this life support. Yeah, for my child or for whatever reason that it needs to occur. And I’m thankful that you did share that because I think that is a big thing for everybody to hear and understand that as you’re continuing through your journey through life and through your grief that this is a thing that you are carrying with you.

Anita: And so many people think, okay, well, this occurred that they’ve moved on, everybody move on, but that’s not true. It’s still a part of your story, and although it doesn’t define who you are, it is still a part of 

Sabrina: you. Yeah. It changes the makeup of your family forever because there’s that missing high chair.

Sabrina: There’s that missing step between siblings, or some people never even get a living child. They only have pregnancy losses of whatever kind. Mm hmm. It changes us, changes us to lose a family member. How would it not? How would it, how would it, how would it not? Exactly. 

Anita: So I have another question for you.

Anita: I feel like today everybody is hearing the word doula. Doula has been thrown around a lot, but you are the TFMR doula. How does it work as far as your specialty? 

Sabrina: Hmm. Yeah, so there are some people that consider doulas are only there physically, like physically attending to the birthing person or their family members during a birth, but there are also postpartum doulas, fertility doulas, there are death doulas.

Sabrina: It’s really someone who companions someone else through their process or rite of passage and This type of loss is a rite of passage, and that’s where I come in. Currently all of my offerings are virtual, which is great because I can connect people all over the world and we come together and you know, share ideas and resources and coping and stories.

Sabrina: bUt I guess when people work one on one with me. I, I lead them through a postpartum bath ritual, so that can even be virtual and we can talk about it and process the feelings and emotions that come up after. And I also lead people through grief circles. So some people want to meet live and get a higher level of support.

Sabrina: And I put these groups together of about four or five of us. And we go through grief circles together, we meet together on Zoom, and we talk about what it’s like to have gone through this rite of passage, and what it means now to mother in this way, to have parented in this way. And that’s where the companioning comes in.

Anita: I like the way you explained it. And for me, I was able to even like visually see it, the circle of being able to not only make the connection with you, but also being able to make connection with other moms who are experiencing the same thing you’re experiencing. And. They may not be in the same stage you are at right now, but being able to see, okay, this is where I can be, this is what the future could look like, and being able to see that in the early stages or whatever stage they come to you at, I think that’s a great thing for anybody just to be able to be there and be in this space and in the sacred space of other people who have experienced something similar 

Sabrina: to you.

Sabrina: Yeah, I heard the other day that the definition of ceremony is intrinsically linked with others, right? Like a wedding ceremony. It’s because even if you elope, there’s still one other witness, right? So all of our ceremonies have witnesses, and we may invite loved ones or friends. And so when we see this as ceremony, we can witness each other through this process through and through the love and remembering the huge love and the sacrifice.

Sabrina: That we went through and that our babies went through to get us through TFMR. And now what does it mean to live now in the after where we opened Pandora’s box? We can’t put the NIPT, the amniocentesis, the ultrasound results, the conditions. We can’t just stick them back in the box and say, I’m just going to cover my eyes.

Sabrina: And like, I never saw that. No, we saw it and we had to make a choice. And let me say, it’s hard either way. The, the comments, and there, there will be angry comments for like, any parenting or mothering choice, right? We know that. It’s really like, part and parcel of being a mother. You’re gonna get flack and negative comments about whatever you choose.

Sabrina: But this happens when people, sometimes when people share their TFMR stories or their termination stories. Or they may call it their abortion story and then the comments come in, I don’t even know what they say, but the thing is I’ve also seen people who have carried sick pregnancies to term or babies with many different conditions to term.

Sabrina: And you know what, they get the same comments on their posts. You’re selfish. You’re a bad mother. How could you choose this?

Sabrina: There’s really no winning. We, we just have to choose what’s best for us. What’s best in our heart. What’s best for this baby with this condition in this pregnancy. Everybody likes to 

Anita: have opinions. When it comes to women and anything we choose to do with our bodies and stuff like that. What are three ways that someone can be more supportive to a mom who’s going through TFM1 or has 

Sabrina: gone through TFM1?

Sabrina: Yeah, I imagine many other doulas and other mothers probably listen to your podcast. So being in those roles, we can, we can support. You know, our community members and people who go through really hard things in a very profound way. I Would say num number one is to be careful with your language. So, some some people say things that are more to soothe themselves.

Sabrina: So people who go through this type of pregnancy loss may hear things like, Well, it’s good you caught it early. Or, it’s good you found out.

Sabrina: They’re really saying that to soothe themselves. It’s like, oh, oh good. But what’s going on is this is a big grief process. This is a loss. So just remember this is the loss of a family member. Would you say that to someone? I mean, people say stuff all the time. So like, you know, someone getting a, a, a cancer diagnosis or the.

Sabrina: It’s like, well, it’s, it’s good that you found out. It’s like, okay,

Sabrina: that doesn’t incorporate everything that’s going on. So I would say, be, be careful with your language. Something that would be better to say is I’m sorry for your loss. Or or if you’re in the position to talk to someone while they’re even making the decision or they’ve just found out about the, the diagnosis you could say something like, I’m sorry you, you’ve even been put in that position

Sabrina: because it’s just hard and there’s nothing that we can do or say to take away the hardness. That’s it. That’s another thing that a lot of my community members say helped them is people who just said. That’s, that sucks. That’s horrific. That’s awful. I’m so sorry you went through that.

Sabrina: So being 

Anita: like more intentional with what you’re saying, not just trying to soothe yourself. 

Sabrina: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, because sometimes people will say, like, they, they jump, they jump past the sitting with the person in the devastation, and they move so quickly into the like hope for the future. Yeah, that they could say things like, well, at least, you know, you could get pregnant or you can get pregnant again.

Sabrina: It’s like, that does not take away this crisis that does not take away this grief. So if number one is be careful with your language. I would say number two is it’s okay to not, to not know what to say and it’s okay to just listen. I think that’s 

Anita: very powerful when it comes to any type of group. Oh yeah.

Anita: For anybody. Just being able to hold space for that 

Sabrina: person. Yeah, it’s something that We may have never been taught to do, especially with our go go, you know, like, capitalist society, gotta, gotta work, gotta do this, like, go to the next task, you’ll get another job, you do this, or like, we’ll get ahead, or, you know, it’s just like on and on and on and on to the next bigger, bigger, bigger.

Sabrina: But we’re still human animals in these bodies that go through these different rites of passage. And the body and the rite of passage itself is asking for time and to be seen. Like to be seen in ceremony, even if it’s not a ceremony, even if it’s just, you know, just, it’s not just when it’s a conversation between two friends or kindred spirits or a support person, like if you’re the doula or the nurse or or a coworker, you know, you can even say.

Sabrina: Words and I’m here to listen whatever you want to share and then actually listen. What would number three be three? I want to say something about education like if they if they share the diagnosis name You can google it learn a little bit about it or if they share You know, that it’s a TFMR, you could Google TFMR support, and you’ll find me and like a few others that are in this space, and what we share, because sometimes we share more of the inner thoughts, or part of the closed community, that your friend or patient may not share with you, just because it may not be the right place, Bye.

Sabrina: Bye. But if you find these communities and, and accounts you can see like we, we share what we’re, what we’re thinking, what our, what our community is thinking and, and it can give you some insights into, Oh, you know, like you were saying earlier, Oh yeah, I could see how election season could be a hard time for, you know, these bereaved parents.

Sabrina: So 

Anita: to recap is the first one was be careful about what you’re saying. The second one is more of like holding space, making sure you’re listening and then the third one is to become educated so that you can help maybe give resources or if you’re told what the diagnosis is to go read up on the diagnosis so you can understand a little bit more of what occurred and what is still occurring as they’re going through their grieving process.

Sabrina: Yeah, yeah. And depending on the relationship it could be appropriate to even ask that person, you know, what did you learn about the, the diagnosis? That sounds so heartbreaking. And we are sometimes even a bigger expert on it than the doctors who gave us the diagnosis because we had to go like way deep into the Google hole and, and all of the available, you know, research papers.

Sabrina: We had, we had to go there. We had to go way deep in so that we could make an informed decision for our child or for our body or whatever the conditions were, or if it was a combination. So the person themselves can you can even be. You know, a wealth of, of knowledge, if it’s appropriate, right? Because sometimes it’s more appropriate just to talk about, you know, remembering their grief, remembering the baby, because they may not have space for that in their lives.

Sabrina: You know, it’s okay if they share their baby’s name. It’s okay to, you know, send a text and say, Oh, I was, I was thinking about you know, little Charlie today. Well, thank you for 

Anita: coming here today and sharing this information. I know I learned a lot more about TFMR, pregnancy loss, and even learning some other ways that I can help support those who may have experienced it that come my way and things like that.

Anita: If people wanted to get in touch with you, how 

Sabrina: can they get a hold of you? They can go to my website at thetfmrdoula. com And I would say my hub of information is on Instagram. So that’s on the, I have a link on my homepage as well to my Instagram, but across social media, I am the TFMR doula across social media.

Sabrina: And and if someone has been through this themselves, I would invite them into my Facebook group. If they’re on Facebook, I know not everyone is. But it’s a really wonderful space where they can meet other people who have been through it too. So there’s an application form on my website.

Sabrina: That’s on my homepage too. And I even have a tab with different downloads. So if you would rather just get, you know, private emails from me, I have a lot of ways that you can get on my email list too any of those downloads will then take you into the whole TFMR support ecosystem and in my emails.

Sabrina: And. On Instagram and in the Facebook group we’re always sharing other resources like other TFMR support accounts or other broad pregnancy loss spaces that are allies or supportive of TFMR parents because we sort of screen other places for other people in our community. So we do that for each other.

Sabrina: We’re always trying to share more resources because. There are not many, there are not many. Hopefully one day I’ll be able to make a sort of certification or a course so that people can have a TFMR support specialty along with however they do LA or nurse or do grief support. I’ll be looking out for it.

Sabrina: Oh, I’ll invite you. Yeah, you’re invited. 

Anita: I would definitely would love to go through that course and learn more ways to support however 

Sabrina: I can support. Oh, thank you. Well, thank you 

Anita: once again for taking the time out to have this important conversation with me. I hope that those who are listening got something from this conversation and those who may have experienced 

Sabrina: this type of loss.

Sabrina: Now 

Anita: I’ve found a resource that they can go to to learn more information or find support and that everybody has now heard different ways that they are able to support those who have experienced a TFMR pregnancy loss.

Thanks for listening to an episode of the aftercare experience post pregnancy conversations with Anita. Be sure to follow me on all social media platforms at you do mom H W.

Welcome, listeners! In today’s episode, we have a special guest all the way from Mexico—Nicole. She shares her unique journey into motherhood, living far from her Buffalo roots for the past two decades.

Nicole, originally from Buffalo, New York, has been living on the Pacific coast of Mexico for 20 years. A mother of three (ages nine, seven, and six), Nicole wears many hats—she works in education, manages a farm school project, enjoys photography, and was a self-proclaimed birth activist for a significant part of her life.

In this episode, Nicole delves into her experience with unassisted home births, challenging societal norms. She shares her firsthand accounts of witnessing her niece’s and best friend’s home births, which inspired her own unconventional birthing choices. Nicole reflects on the surprise she faced during her first childbirth—the birth of her son with a limb difference—and how it shaped her perspective on motherhood.

The conversation extends to the importance of postpartum planning, advocating for your preferences, and understanding both your desires and boundaries. Nicole emphasizes the significance of knowing what you don’t want in addition to what you do, particularly during the delicate postpartum period.

As Nicole transitioned from birth work to outdoor education, she invites listeners to connect with her on her Instagram and Facebook page, both named The Life of a Strong Mama as well as through email at thelifeofastrongmama@gmail.com. Nicole is open to providing private support, sharing insights, and engaging in conversations about her personal journey and experiences with children with disabilities.

Join us for an insightful conversation with Nicole as she shares her unconventional yet empowering journey through motherhood, offering inspiration and valuable lessons to parents navigating their unique paths.

Key Takeaways:

1. Embrace unconventional paths to motherhood.
2. Prioritize postpartum planning, considering both desires and boundaries.
3. Advocate for your preferences and communicate openly with your support system.
4. Explore and connect with online communities for additional support.
5. Recognize the importance of knowing what you don’t want in your postpartum experience.

Listener Engagement: Have you faced challenges or surprises during your postpartum journey? Share your stories and insights in the comments or connect with Nicole directly!

Stay Tuned for More: Stay tuned for our upcoming episodes where we continue to explore unique parenting journeys and share inspiring stories. Subscribe and follow us on Apple Podcast and Spotify for updates!

Thank you for listening to The Aftercare Experience: Postpregnancy Conversations with Anita where every story is a journey worth sharing!

NOV 16, 2023SHARE

Anita: Hey, everyone. Thanks for listening today. I have a special guest all the way from Mexico. Everybody. Welcome, Nicole. Hi, Nicole. 

Nicole: Hi, thank you. Yeah. So can you tell 

Anita: everybody who you are 

Nicole: and a little bit about you? Sure. Um, I am actually originally from Buffalo, New York, and I, um, have been living in this area of Mexico, which is on the Pacific coast for 20 years now in January.

Nicole: Um, so yeah, it’s been a long time and I am a mother of Three children, and that right now feels like the first, uh, best way to describe myself, . Um, my children are nine, seven, and six, so it’s a full-time gig . Um, in addition to that, I’m also, I, I work in education. Um, we have a little farm school project on the land where we live, and I really am into photography.

Nicole: I like cooking and there was about a decade of my life where I was. a self proclaimed birth activist. So, um, those are kind of my, yeah, kind of a little bit about myself. Tell me a 

Anita: little bit about this birth 

Nicole: advocate. Yeah, um, so I have, I have, my three children were all born at home, um, and on a system.

Nicole: Which for those of us that use that label is really, um, there were no medical professional, um, in the birth space or present during the birth. And so I guess my journey in that realm of, um, kind of being an activist and, and, and really seeking for that type of birth. a little bit over a decade ago. Um, and I guess I’m 41 now.

Nicole: So I think with age, just kind of, you realize that you don’t need to scream from the mountaintops for everybody to hear you and they quietly come when they’re ready and when they need to hear the information. So I’ve just kind of stepped down a little bit from that, but it was really about hearing my stories, sharing stories that were similar to ours to mine.

Nicole: Um, I have. Some really close friends. My sister-in-Law who’ve all birthed in this way. So showing up for, um, for group conversations. And we’ve had conferences in the area where we live, online, podcasts, things like that. Just really, like you said, sharing stories like you’re doing here, um, and really getting the uns.

Nicole: Spoken things said and seen, and so that others know that they’re also possible to do the same. I love that. Can you 

Anita: tell us a little bit about, um, 

Nicole: your, your birth? Yeah, sorry. Just had a little sip of hot coffee. Um, so I, my birth stories, I would say started with my niece’s birth. My niece just turned 12, so she was born almost two years.

Nicole: before my first son. Um, my brother and sister in law moved. Also, they were living in the area where I lived in Mexico, and they had always known that they were going to birth without assistance. It was just the path that my sister in law had really been studying and learning. She had, she had sat with and interviewed and kind of, um, maybe like apprenticed a little bit here and there with midwives around the world, um, had some really great friends and courses.

Nicole: So that was their path, and that was something that they already were, um, firm in. And So I was a witness to that and it was them and myself present at the birth of my niece in our little apartment. And I mean, it was like every birth that anybody has ever witnessed. It’s monumental and life changing. And for me, what that did was it really, um, I don’t know, it let everything fall off of what any like hindrances or anything that potentially could have been in front of me saying like, you can’t birth like this, or this isn’t, this isn’t normal, or this isn’t possible because it was very possible.

Nicole: It was very, it wasn’t easy for my sister in law who was pregnant. birthing, obviously, but as a witness, it seemed pretty uneventful, flawless. Um, the baby was born beautiful. Everything was great. So that was my first in, and then my best friend down here had the same type of birth, um, and I was witness to that.

Nicole: I was there. And so my first, first really firsthand examples of birth were those. So for me, it was a given that mine were going to be the same if, if it worked out and you know, if the stars were aligned, that that was going to be my path. And so that’s what we did. And, um, well, all three, my kids are two years apart.

Nicole: from each other and they were all at home. My, the same birth pool that my niece was born in. And obviously every birth was so different and I could go on podcasts of hours and hours telling the details of each birth. But, um, what I do want to speak to is my first, we didn’t do, we didn’t want to know the gender of our children when they were in utero.

Nicole: We weren’t, we didn’t want, you know, down here, they say to find the sex. Um, we didn’t care. We, there wasn’t. And we kind of wanted that to be a surprise. And what that brought up for us was, um, in the first pregnancy, I went to quite a few appointments of ultrasounds, just kind of feeling my way through the medical system and seeing what was, what felt, what felt safe, what felt aligned with what I was looking for in care.

Nicole: Um, and we had a typical gynecologist, OBGYN, senior, old man that’s been in the business for, you know, decades down here. And so we let him know that we didn’t want another gender. And he did some ultrasounds and, um, and, you know, gave us a disc, a CD of the ultrasounds. And my first son was born, um, with a limb difference, which is kind of a layman’s term of somebody who has a certain type of, um, change in the way that their bones in there are, are developed in their limbs.

Nicole: And so my son was born with a limb difference on his left side. So his left arm, uh, kind of stops at the elbow and has a formation of a hand and his left leg is missing seven, eight bones, though that was a surprise when he was born. Um, and so we’re kind of checking everything was great. The birth was fast.

Nicole: It was in the morning. It’s really liberating and beautiful. Um, and the first question is, you know, how are his toes? How are his fingers? Everything there. And then it’s like, does he, is he, does he have a penis? Have a, you know, like what is his, his biological gender? And so that was kind of a surprise for us.

Nicole: Um, not kind of a surprise. It was a huge surprise. And, and, um, and for the people who are with us, family and friends that were witnessing his birth. And so that was a big, that was just a big awakening, a big, um. Initiation into motherhood, into parenting, into a new diverse realm that we were now going to be navigating for the rest of our lives of a child with a disability.

Nicole: Um, and a lot of things that came up for that. And then subsequently that my other two births were in and of themselves, unique and curious and. Um, and all different kinds of parts that changed and were different than the first birth and different than the second birth. Um, but yeah, there you go. So 

Anita: I have I guess a few questions for you.

Anita: Um, a lot of women if they would have gone through what you went through in your first birth to see that surprise would have possibly decided you know what maybe next time I just go through and continue with the OB senior male doctors? Um, what made you still decide that you wanted to continue your journey the way you wanted to do it?

Anita: Yeah, that’s actually, 

Nicole: um, basically, that’s like the biggest question that people ask that comes up. Um, I guess I, I mean, reflecting on that now, a decade later, seven, eight years later, it’s not, it doesn’t, my, I don’t know, my answer might not feel as, um, clear for others. But I actually ended up getting further and further from the medical system.

Nicole: After that, um, my second birth, I went to four, three appointments for ultrasounds and kind of dropped my caretaker halfway through. Um, and my third birth, my third pregnancy, I only went for one ultrasound, um, in a clinic that had no OBGYN association. It was just a ultrasound clinic and then no services at all.

Nicole: So ironically, it almost was the opposite effect for me. Um, to be, to be fair, to be genuine, like total transparency. It was just something that my husband and I had so much, um, firm confidence that it was the way it needed to be. And our son was not, um, it just wasn’t pathologic, pathologic, uh, like putting a pathology on him and it wasn’t something that.

Nicole: Felt like a disorder or a disability or a disease or something that was like, you know, I, I, sorry. I sometimes come up with the words in Spanish and I lose my English word. It almost, I was going to say imponiendo, but like putting on a outside kind of agendas. And it felt like we were on the right path of not going in that direction.

Nicole: In fact, that question that you said, um, a lot of what came up for a lot.

Nicole: friends is, aren’t you? Don’t you want to get more, more medical intervention? Don’t you want to know more and check if his chromosome or what is the situation? And we had a lot of services available to us down here. My husband’s mexican, my Children are Mexican by birth. So and we just felt some intuitive Feeling that we didn’t, that wasn’t a problem for us.

Nicole: Our son, if our consecutive two, three, seven more children, we were to have, we’re going to be born in the same way. It wasn’t, um, a bad thing. And so that’s just a whole realm of, um, yeah, of navigating. And when families are, you know, are received with a child who has quote unquote disability and, and it’s just a lot comes, comes undone.

Nicole: Um, but yeah, that’s, that’s kind of our direction. 

Anita: Thank you for sharing that. Um, what is one piece of advice? that you wish somebody would have given you during your pregnancy or during your 

Nicole: postpartum journey? I think that what happens, at least for me and a lot of my loved ones, the women that I’m dear with, you know, that are dear to me, I think a lot of times, especially with your first birth, we’re so hyper focused on the birth, um, and getting ready for that and like, you know, getting to that hurdle and how are we going to cross that threshold and all of the emotional stuff.

Nicole: spiritual, physiological, physical stuff, prepare for that one event that a lot of times, um, I would almost say most times all the rest is just not really put attention to. So there was a lot of this preparing for birth and getting ready for the birth, but there wasn’t really a lot of. Um, or sharing or resources about what happens after you have this little person with you.

Nicole: So even though I had really close people in life and I was around newborns and I was in, I was always been in childcare. I’ve always known how to change diapers, you know, how to bottle feed a baby. I didn’t have, um, insight to what it’s like to burp a newborn or to, um, you know, a. A baby that when you have my status and how do you nurse like all of the things that come with the immediacy of postpartum?

Nicole: I felt totally lost. Um, so I do wish that I had a little bit more, you know, my second, first and my third got that got better because my people also were exploring and learning that. Oh, shit. We weren’t really ready for the, the, the fourth trimester. Um, yeah. And then once that happened with my first son, I really started to, and you know, God bless the internet, right?

Nicole: Sometimes is I really started to tap into, um, networks and, and, you know, like Instagram pages and communities, virtual communities of women who were all about the fourth trimester and postpartum care and nursing support and lactation counseling and all the things that I just kind of was slopping around with, um, immediate postpartum.

Nicole: So yeah, I would That’s probably it. And also I think that there, it didn’t, I felt very, very lost on nursing on, on, on breastfeeding. That for me was, even though, like I said, my nurse, my sister in law lived with me, she was nursing her baby all the time. My best friends, I was in circles of women that were working in birth.

Nicole: work. And it was not, um, it was not easy. It was very hard and challenging and painful and confusing. Um, but we came out on the other end and I nursed for almost seven years straight in that moment. That’s definitely something that I wish that somebody would have given me a little bit more insight or, or been like, you know, watch out, it’s really hard.

Nicole: And, but at the, at the end of the day, I recognize that it’s kind of stuff that we all have to really find. You know, uh, find in our own way and see, you know, just learn it in our own time. Um, so thank you for 

Anita: sharing that and thank you for meeting with me today and getting the story out there and letting others know about birthing at home and how it can be the experience that you want it to be.

Anita: It doesn’t have to be as hands on as society has made it. to be. Um, you can have the experience that you want to have. You just have to know what it is that you want to experience. And I think that’s the same thing that can also be, um, used also in postpartum too, because like you said, everybody’s thinking, so focused on birth and make sure my nursery is together, but we never think about ourselves of what things we want for us.

Anita: So if we can also create that plan for ourselves of this is how I want to feel in my postpartum period, and at least understand the feelings that we want, or I know I want to breastfeed. Maybe I need to contact somebody earlier while I’m still pregnant to at least know a little bit of stuff so that.

Anita: When the baby comes, I have a little bit of knowledge, and if that’s not working, maybe then I reach out to somebody else or something like that. But if we don’t think about these things early, we end up being lost in our fourth trimester with all the hormones and everything else going along. The household still needs to be put together.

Anita: Now I have a new baby I’m in charge of, but I’m still over here like I’m not myself, and we can’t focus or do the things that we need to do for us. So, I’m so happy you, um, expressed your feelings, your journey with us. Thank you so much. If anybody wants to get in touch with you, how do they get in touch with you?

Anita: What things do you do or still doing? Because you do a lot of things. 

Nicole: Yeah, I mean, I, um, I would So I’m like, wow, I don’t even know how to respond to that. No, I’m just kidding. Um, real quick. I want to just add another thing about kind of postpartum and the plan I would say is also think about the things that you don’t want, because that I see with a lot of my loved ones is, well, I know I don’t want my sister to visit, or I know I don’t want neighbors to come by and I know I don’t want my mother in law to stay with me for three weeks after.

Nicole: So really feel into those things too. And you know, it’s about bravery and facing, facing hearts. stuff and having those hard conversations sometimes, but really standing up for yourself. And if you’re not able to advocate for yourself, know that your partner or your people that are in your sphere can advocate for you and just really use that time to speak your mind.

Nicole: Um, perhaps. before the baby comes so that you don’t have to navigate those hard things and those uncomfortable feelings with all the hormones and all that stuff after the baby comes. Right. So that’s a big one too, is knowing what you don’t want to be able to work around what you do. Um, yeah, so I, right now you can find me, I have an Instagram page, my Facebook page and all my website, everything is the same name.

Nicole: Um, ironically it’s the life of a strong mama. Um, the website is that. org Instagram and Facebook is that exact same tag. And my email is that as well. at Gmail. Um, right now I am just figuring it out. I’m out there. Um, little by little as my children grow older, I am kind of stepping away from birth base and birth work a little bit more.

Nicole: Um, I would, I had in the past been present at unassisted births in my region. Speaking at conferences and organizing a really dear friend of mine is making a documentary right now around kind of obstetric violence and autonomy and medical system during postpartum and birth. So I’m supporting her in that, but just I get anything anybody has questions around my personal story, how, you know, any, like, insight that they feel after hearing me share.

Nicole: Anybody that has children with disabilities that they don’t feel like they have somebody to ask questions to or speak out or, you know, share their stories because it doesn’t really feel like there’s a lot of spaces out there for that, reach out to me. Um, just private support, I suppose, is what I would say.

Nicole: Um, I’m definitely not holding a role or the, the label of doula, um, or midwife in this. Part of my life. I think when I’m a grandmother, I will return back to that. Um, but raising little kids is really hard to hold space for the way that I want to hold space for women in that realm. Um, so yeah, I say that that’s it.

Nicole: And then in addition, I work primarily right now in outdoor education and helping families and programs and micro schools kind of start up and, and learn insights into that kind of world and, and, and resources and podcasts and things like that. So yeah, that’s what I would share. 

Anita: I actually have one more question for you.

Anita: What made you move from New York to Mexico? That’s 

Nicole: a, that’s a good one. Um, I was young, um, I was 21, so I’m originally from Buffalo, New York, like fourth generation Buffalonian, um, they say Buffalo native now. Um, And I just wanted to change and explore. And so I moved here with a young, with a friend who was, was born and raised here.

Nicole: Um, and so I kind of had that, uh, that benefit that in, and so we moved and we were going to travel and go to Peru and see the pyramids and, you know, be mochileras, which is backpackers. And I got a really great job within two months and a great tour. Agency and I got my work visa and I stayed. Um, and obviously along the way I fell in love and then fell out of love and then did some more fun stuff.

Nicole: I worked in nonprofit for 12 years. I had a lot of different kind of careers, um, in all of this, but it was just figuring out that I. It could be done. So I moved and I was facilitated all my kind of those hard things like visa and housing and things that can be challenging for people when they travel the world.

Nicole: Um, and that, yeah. And, and over the years, just really being able to, um, learn from study. I studied to be a natural therapist with certain professors here. I doing my, um, my formation formation in, uh, on kind of unstructured learning spaces and all sorts of things. So, yeah, it’s, it’s been two decades. But, um, yeah, it feels really far from Buffalo sometimes, but the internet allows me to stay connected and stay close to people that are still up there.

Nicole: Perfect. 

Anita: Well, thank you so much for giving your time today, telling your story and being a space where other parents who have kids with disability are able to reach out to you and have these conversations. And I hope you have a great rest of your day. Thank you, Anita.